Visions of Peace: Judy Shepard by John Aston The mother of Matthew Shepard talks about her son’s life, some of the experiences that preceded his murder, and how to teach love and respect

Editor’s note: When Judy Shepard was in Houston in September as the guest of honor of the River Oaks Area Democratic Women (along with James Byrd Jr.’s family), she graciously agreed to do an extensive interview with OutSmart. We asked John Aston to conduct the interview because of his close connection with another gay murder, banker Paul Broussard in Houston in 1991.

Aston is currently studying heterosexism and homophobia in the schools, focusing on Jon Buice, one of the 10 adolescent assailants from McCullough High School who killed Broussard. "In my own experience as an educator and school administrator for the past 24 years," he says, "the most frequent expressions of prejudice that I heard in the classroom and in the schools were homophobic in nature. The research I have read also bears out the frequency and severity of homophobia in our schools. Antigay/lesbian remarks and actions are often tolerated by educators and administrators and, sometimes, even expressed by school staff." Aston is currently an adjunct professor at Southwest Texas State University and a lecturer at Texas A&M, where he joined the campus ALLY organization, a gay/straight student alliance which seeks to provide "a safe haven, a listening ear, and support for LGBT people, or anyone dealing with sexual orientation issues." He hopes to publish a dissertation with the results of his research in early 2001.

This interview was conducted on September 19.

John Aston: Thank you for allowing me to interview you. One phrase that sticks in my mind as I have gone about my research has been the societal "sense of permission" to harass and attack lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender persons. Along that line, what were your experiences, or Matthew’s experiences, with such a "sense of permission" to harass or attack gays, or antigay ideology, in the schools?

Judy Shepard: I’m afraid I’m not going to be very helpful there, because Matt’s issues in school in the states was about size. He was very small, always, off the growth charts that the school nutritionists had. But everyone loved him. He had friends in every social group from grade school through the sophomore year in high school. The hoods, the cowboys, he was just friends with everyone. Everyone loved Matthew. He was funny, smart, friendly, kind. No one ever said anything else about him. No one ever said anything about his homosexuality, at least that we ever knew about. I should qualify that: that anyone ever told us. He was teased about his size, but in a loving kind of way.

Then we moved to Saudi Arabia, and he was in a boarding school in Europe from 11th to 12th grade, in Switzerland, with kids from all over the world. And, in a school like that, where you are exposed to that much diversity, the fact that you’re questioning your sexuality, or anything like that, is not like the worst thing in the world to you. Because everyone is accepting of everything about you. They are part of your life, and they are going to love you whatever.

But when he came back and went to North Carolina to school, I think he ran into more of a traditional [culture]. He did come out there, to a small group of friends who were gay. But he was very frightened by the general population there; it was different. There were many racial slurs; he witnessed physical attacks on blacks while he was there. I think innately that he realized that it was dangerous to come out to the general population there. So he was not out to anyone but his true friends. When he came back to Wyoming, in graduate school, he had another small group of friends. He felt very safe there. When he went to Denver, he experienced that also.

Was that after the attack in Morocco? [Note: Matthew was attacked, raped, and robbed by a group of locals in Morocco during his senior year in high school.]

Oh, yes. That was before he went to the university.

When the incident happened in Morocco, did you find out about it right away?

Yes. I tried to get to him, but it was easier for him to come to us in Saudi Arabia.

He was on a senior trip.

So it was sort of an isolated incident, in Morocco? He hadn’t experienced any harassment up to then?

Oh, no.

That sounds like a terrible experience. If it’s not too sensitive for you to talk about...

No.

How did you feel about it? Did your worry escalate?

Oh, absolutely. Not just physically, but psychologically. He suffered severe bouts of depression and anxiety. And we would worry even more, because we felt he should be getting better, quicker. He’d be just fine, and then he’d be set back, having severe bouts of depression.

The research I’ve read says that boys who are small, who don’t fit that masculine image, or into that "box," frequently receive the same sort of harassment; often they are presumed gay and harassed in the same way. It’s all part of the same package.

It’s true. Matthew was not in the least bit weak. But they just assumed that, because he was small. After the Morocco incident, he took on the air of a victim. Which is where, I think, the harassment began, in Denver. He walked with the air of a victim. He walked, you know, kept his head down, and ambled. He didn’t have that air of confidence. That aura, you know, invites harassment.

So that is when things really changed for him, and led to the depression?

Right.

I noticed that you said you think education is where you start. Could you expand a little bit on that? What do you think educators should be doing?

Well, I hate to say this, but it seems that parents have to counteract that negative in schools, when they go home. You always want to believe that parents and educators have a positive outlook on life, and love and respect everyone, but unfortunately it doesn’t always happen that way. It’s a matter of making the decision, as parents and educators, that we want the kids to have that outlook on life, to love and respect everyone. But if kids don’t learn that in school, school is where they really learn their life lessons. It’s when they get out from the protection of mom and dad and have to intermingle with their peers, this is where they make their decisions about whether they’re going to like people, or single out people, or how they’re going to live their life. Schools should start educating them about all the people, about all the groups, having the same treatment, that they’re all in society and deserve the same.

I noticed that you were using the FBI statistics in your testimony before the Senate judiciary committee about hate crimes. Are you aware that, due to huge underreporting rates, at least 50 percent, possibly to as high as 90 percent, of these incidents are underreported? If that is the case, then the whole profile and ratio of bias crimes in the U.S. becomes quite different.

Yes, I have become [aware] since. And you can understand that, because quite frankly you don’t want to go through the hassle or the danger of exposure, because, as you say, of the "sense of permission" that exists out there in society. By allowing the jokes and the stories, that gives other people the permission to take the next step, which is violence and oppression against gays.

What do you think of the "don’t ask, don’t tell" type of policy, which exists not only in the military, but in many of the professions, such as education?

It also exists in the state of Wyoming. You know, it’s a survival thing. "I like you just fine," unless you tell me that you’re gay or lesbian. Then I’m not going to like you. It says a lot about our society as a whole that they don’t want to deal with the issues, that they don’t want to face up to the fact that people they know and love may be gay or lesbian. They just don’t want to educate themselves.

In education itself, in their careers, it’s the preservation of their life, their jobs, their livelihood. In education in particular, because people are so wrapped up about the [myth of] the gay community being predators on children. And it’s so wrong; so, so wrong. Children are far more likely to be molested by a heterosexual member of their family. The Boy Scouts are having their problems with that, as well. I know they’re a private organization, and they have the right to do what they want, but the idea that they’re giving to the world, about gays, that’s just reinforcing the myth.

I agree. And I’m speaking as an Eagle Scout. And I’m, well, ashamed, of the stance they’ve taken.

One of the boys who killed Matt was an Eagle Scout. What does that say?

You know, one of the boys who was convicted in the attack on Paul Broussard was the son of an assistant superintendent of a school district. That also perhaps says something.

Yes.

What do you think of Parents of Murdered Children, and victims’ rights organizations, in general, that focus on keeping the assailants in jails, denying them probation, and so forth? That doesn’t seem to be your focus, apparently.

No, but I think on it, and then I know I’m not the one [to champion] victims’ rights. I have a struggle. I want to be involved in what happens to those perpetrators. I want to know every move they make. If they change prisons, parole hearings, it’s really, really important to be a part of that. I will be at every one, if it ever happens. It’s important for me to do that. I don’t want anyone to ever forget the horribleness of what they did.

I personally don’t know enough about their organizations. Insh’allah [God willing], whatever happens to come about, they won’t be a part of my life, because they [Matt’s assailants] are serving two consecutive life sentences, without parole.

I heard you express some of the process you went about in accepting your son’s homosexuality, and so forth. There’s a question I would like to ask, if you don’t mind me asking: How has this whole experience affected your marriage?

Well, I think it has made it stronger. I know that there’s a very high probability

for families that they come apart. But Dennis and I are committed to each other. We are in love, and it made the whole family stronger, all of us. Our first thought, when this happened to Matt, was how important it was for us to be there for him. And that it wasn’t about us. There was never any question, like, "It was your fault," or anything. My answer is that it made us stronger.

Apparently. When Matt was in his pre-college years, when he came out to a few friends, was there ever anyone, like a school counselor, that he confided in? I know I read that in college he went to a counselor to talk to her about his depression, and she wanted to focus on...

Right, on his A.D.D. [Attention Deficit Disorder]. No, by this time, he had seen so many counselors that he’d gotten to where he’d go in and tell these counselors these whopping stories, and if they figured out it was a whopping story, then they were OK, but if not, then he never went back. It was like, "If you can’t figure out it’s a whopping story, then I’m wasting my time talking with you." So, he was very critical of them.

When did he start seeking therapy?

Right after the Moroccan trip. It was a very critical time. Earlier, a few times, but not for depression, not really. There was this brief period of depression, at about age 14, when he started seeing a therapist, for a brief time. And they became very good friends, throughout his life. They had a really great relationship. It helped Matt to understand that throughout his life, life changes are sometimes difficult. I don’t know if he was questioning his sexuality then or not. I don’t know. I don’t think he made his decision then. He might have been questioning then, I don’t know. When he came back from Saudi Arabia, he spent about two weeks with her. There were some very important things the counselor shared with us, right away, about how important it was for Matt losing his sense of power and control over his life, how we would have to start letting him make decisions about his life that, perhaps ordinarily, we would not have let him make for himself. It sort of changed our whole parenting thing with Matt, because the counselor thought it was very important that Matt feel in control.

What do you feel like school counselors should know, or someone like myself, teaching pre-service teachers, what would you like us to know and convey?

These kids feel like there’s no one else like them on the planet. They feel very isolated. They need to feel safe and not to feel like they’re going to feel persecuted, or hated, or laughed at, or outed to everybody. That sense of safety is very important. The counselors, teachers, whoever, they need to have resources available to help. And there needs to be a place for them to go, where, by virtue of just going there, doesn’t label them gay or lesbian.

I know I’ve always got an ALLY sign on my door, but in public school, by just coming to see me, that might out them...

Right. That’s why the gay/straight student alliances are really great in high school, because both gay and straight belong, so you’re not automatically gay just because you go there.

Is there anything you’d like to add about your Journey to a Hate Free Millennium program or anything else you’d like us to know?

Just that one of the most important steps in school to stop the hatred is to stop the language which gives a sense of permission. The language is pervasive, even when kids say things like, "Oh, that’s so gay." They probably don’t really mean it. It’s like something perhaps so totally different. But the verbiage is very hurtful.

I surely do appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

You’re very welcome. Good luck with your dissertation.

A FEW POST-INTERVIEW NOTES

After the formal interview was over, and the tape recorder turned off, Judy and I continued to converse over a bite of lunch served by the hotel. I noted the strong condemnation of homosexuality in most of Islam, including, in some countries, the death penalty for homosexuals, and asked her about her experiences with it while living in Saudi Arabia. She said that the homophobia was part of the pervasive hypocrisy of much of Islam, which forbids also drugs and alcohol and heterosexual affiliation of any kind outside of marriage, but where drug and alcohol abuse is rampant, as well as intense harassment of and pervasive "hitting on" of any female foreign visitors. Of course, the forbidding of heterosexual affiliation leads to rampant but unacknowledged homosexuality as well. It is, as she put it, a "viciously patriarchal society," and that seems to lend itself to vicious persecution of homosexuals as well. As for the U. S. and non-Islamic presence, due to the oil economy, "they hated us, and the foreigners hated them." On the part of the foreigners, there was a "take the money and run" mentality, and on their part, they wanted nothing to do with our "Western corruption," but used us for our role in the economy.

These comments helped me understand what Jon Buice had told me about learning racism and white supremacist ideas while being in Saudi Arabia with his dad, and the "race wars" on the streets between gangs of foreign and Arab kids that were so prevalent when he was there.

OutSmart would like to give special thanks to Muffie Moroney and the ROADwomen(the River Oaks Area Democratic Women) for all their pains to make sure that OutSmart was able to interview Judy Shepard, and that we had several places at the table at the ROADwomen banquent. We applaud the ROADwomen’s efforts at making gay rightsa priority in your organization’s agenda and consciousness.