GOD ’n’ GAYS ’n’ TAMMY FAYE

Tammy Faye Messner talks about gays, religion, spirituality, and Jerry Falwell

by Blase DiStefano

Photo by Greg Gorman

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, James Robison, Lou Sheldon. Does it ever seem to you that the words compassionate and Christian are incompatible? Yeah, me too. We can now rejoice, because the two C words can be joined together under the name Tammy Faye Messner.

You may remember her as Tammy Faye Bakker, the wife of televangelist Jim Bakker. In 1988, they lost their PTL (Praise the Lord) empire to Jerry Falwell, who did not put (and will probably never put) the fun back in fundamentalist.

Tammy Faye was vilified, ostracized, and crucified. You would have thought she was Jesus Christ—or at least gay—for Christ’s sake. She had been put through the wringer, what with her husband’s one-nighter with Jessica Hahn, his imprisonment, their divorce, her son Jamie’s drug problem, and her daughter Tammy Sue’s estrangement.

But two gay guys, Randy Barbato and Fenton Bailey, resurrected her career with The Eyes of Tammy Faye, a great documentary narrated by none other than RuPaul, who told OutSmart in August 2000: “Tammy Faye Bakker is a joy and I’ve always loved her. She’s basically the Christian Judy Garland.”

Tammy Faye is now happily married to Roe Messner, her son is sober, and her daughter is now her best friend. She’s touring with her one-woman cabaret show, which opens this month for a limited off-Broadway engagement, and, to top it off, she has written I Will Survive ... And You Will Too (Penquin Books) , a book in which she shares her views on everything from marriage to makeup, parenting to purses, faith to fashion, grief to gays. To put it in the words of Tammy Faye: “It’s really cute, because we had a lady here in Charlotte do a synopsis of my book, and she said something so interesting, that reading the book is like alternating snacks—sweet then salty, gooey then solid. She said it’s a pick-it-up-at-any-page book, comfort snacking at its finest. And I thought that was such a neat thing, just a neat way to put it.”

As you’ll see, Tammy Faye also has a neat way of “putting it.”

OutSmart: I know this is your first interview for the day, so I’m assuming you’ve put on your makeup.

Tammy Faye Messner: Yes, I have my makeup on.

OS: In your book, I think you said it takes from five to 20 minutes…

TFM: That’s right, depending on if I have an eyelash crash down. Because my eyes aren’t as good as they used to be, I had a little eyelash accident today, and so I had to take a little longer today. I’m all together now.

OS: Great. I’d like to start off by saying that when I was growing up I always avoided all the Christian-type shows. I assumed everyone involved was…

TFM: A little crazy.

OS: No, not crazy, but judgmental.

TFM: Oh, I see.

OS: I felt like my being gay, they weren’t going to like me, so I didn’t want to watch them.

TFM: Oh, bless your heart. And I totally understand that.

OS: I never even saw your show, because my assumption was that every Christian was basically the same.

TFM: Judgmental and mean.

OS: Yeah. But I’ve read that gay people watched it, and I heard about the time you interviewed a gay man who had AIDS, and I thought, That’s really something. I think you were probably the first Christian on TV to do such a thing.

TFM: Everybody said to me, “Well, didn’t the Christian world come down on you for that?” I said that it didn’t make any difference if they were going to or not, because I felt it was the right thing to do. I felt that’s what Jesus would have done, and if we’re going to be like Jesus, then we cannot be judgmental, and we’ve got to love those that are hurting.

OS: I had never thought the words compassionate and Christian could be used together.

TFM: Oh, that is so sad to me, because Jesus is all about compassion.

OS: I grew up a Catholic, which is all about guilt and judgment. So I became an atheist, then I became an agnostic, and then I finally found spirituality, but not religion.

TFM: Religion and spirituality are two totally different things. And I’ll tell you, I would rather have spirituality, because religion is not a good thing. Religion starts wars. I’m glad they call it religion, because salvation doesn’t start wars. A true experience of God does not start wars. That changes you. That’s where religion and salvation are all messed up—they’re two totally different things.

OS: Let’s go back. About how old were you when you met Jim?

TFM: I was 18. We were married when I had just turned 19. And after about a couple of weeks of being with Jim, I realized that he had a problem, which he had been able to hide from me which I did not know. It was the fact that he had very bad times of depression. I didn’t know anything about depression, because I had always been such a happy person. I knew sadness in my life, but I didn’t know depression. And so I didn’t know how to deal with Jim’s depression. I was literally just shocked by it.

OS: How long did it go on?

TFM: Oh, it was ongoing through our whole 30-year marriage. And I had spent the 30 years trying to help Jim out of bouts of depression, which just totally wore me out as a person. I was always the one telling him it was going to be OK, Don’t give up, hang in there, Jim, you can do it.

OS: About how long would they last?

TFM: Sometimes they would last four or five days. I kept thinking a person could snap out of depression, that it must be a psychological thing, but it’s also a chemical imbalance, which I didn’t know about. And so I spent so many years thinking it was a psychological thing, and he had everything going for him, he just needed to snap out of it. Jim really was an optimist, but when he’d get into a depression, he would become a severe pessimist. He was either real, real high, or he was very, very low and depressed. There wasn’t a lot of in-between time.

OS: During those bad times when the ministry was being taken over, did the depression get worse?

TFM: He was depressed constantly. I finally got to where I was able to cope with it, but I still did not understand it. I wanted him to go back and fight, but he was too depressed to fight to get back PTL [Praise The Lord]. So that was very sad, and that’s something that I think Jim still has a problem with today. But there are a lot of people who live in depression. It’s so widespread in this world we live in, and those who don’t understand it are also widespread, because one would think that people should be able to snap out of it by positive thinking.

OS: It’s just not that simple

TFM: It just must not be that simple.

OS: No, wish it was.

TFM: I wish it were, yes.

OS: Let’s talk about Jerry Falwell.

TFM: I talk about Jerry a little bit in the book, but they wouldn’t let me put his name in, which it was in my other book, so I don’t understand that. I had it in there, and then they just deleted it. But what you saw in the book was, I still think that Jerry Falwell was a crook. I don’t feel he’s an honorable man. And I feel that he is a man who will take advantage of anyone that is down, and I think he will lie to people, and that is not a Christ-like spirit.

The Bible talks about wolves in sheep’s clothing. And a little lamb is gentle and precious, and if a little lamb came to you, you would trust him. And he came to us as a lamb, but he was really a wolf in sheep’s clothing. And I would tell that to his face. I have wanted to talk to Jerry Falwell, but he won’t get within a thousand miles of me.

OS: I recently watched the documentary The Eyes of Tammy Faye, which was excellent. I had no idea that when you made out that list of things that Jerry Falwell had asked…

TFM: He told us what to write down, and I just copied his list [Falwell gave the Bakkers a list of benefits that the board of directors voted for them to receive and said he would let those benefits continue for a year]. That’s all I did.

OS: When he received the list, Falwell went to the press and read that list like it was something that you were…

TFM: That we were demanding. And Jim and I have never demanded anything. In fact, at the end of the list, Jim put, “P.S. I want nothing from this ministry.”

OS: He didn’t read that part of it.

TFM: He didn’t read that part on the air, no, he didn’t.

OS: So, he was showing his true colors.

TFM: Yes, he did show his true colors, and I think people pretty well got him pegged now.

OS: Not then though. And I’ll be honest with you, I was one of the people who believed him.

TFM: Well, of course, why wouldn’t you? People didn’t know. I was trying to look at it objectively like it wasn’t us, and I thought, I wouldn’t like those people either if they’d done most of those things. I would think they deserve what they got if they’d done those things. But we didn’t do those things.

OS: He even said that Jim was homosexual.

TFM: Yeah, because he knew that was something that the Christian world would not forgive.

OS: Jim had a one-night stand with Jessica Hahn, but that had been a long time ago. And didn’t all this start by Falwell saying it was going to be printed in the newspaper?

TFM: Yeah, it all started with him threatening Jim that he was going to the news, but that he could keep it out of the news. This had happened 13 years before that. Jim was still embarrassed by that, of course, and he didn’t want it going to the newspaper because he had a reputation. Jim had such a wonderful reputation. I kept telling Jim, What you don’t realize, Jim, if you would just go back and face your people and tell them what happened, they would forgive you. They wouldn’t have cared. I begged Jim to go back, but depression set into him so bad that he couldn’t do it. And I felt very sad for Jim. Jim is a wonderful man, he’s a very kind man, and he’s a good man, and I hope he succeeds. He’s back on television again in Branson, Missouri, and I just hope that he succeeds and makes it, because he didn’t deserve what happened to him.

OS: I was talking with a friend of mine at lunch yesterday, and I asked him if he had any questions that he might want me to ask you. He said that he had a lot of faith a long time ago, but that he doesn’t have that now…

TFM: When we pray, we always believe God’s going to say yes. God, I want a Cadillac or God, heal my mother or God, do this or God, do that, and when it doesn’t happen, then we say, “Well, God just didn’t answer.” Yes, he answered. He just said no. That sometimes has a destructive force on our faith, especially new Christians, because they feel God isn’t answering any of their prayers.

And so in order to keep your faith from being smashed all the time, you’ve got to read God’s words. You have got to read the Bible.

And so to build his faith again, he just needs to know that God does say no, and he needs to thank God when God says no, too. Consider that every prayer he prays, God hears, and that God answers every prayer he prays. Now maybe not in timing—God’s timing is not ours at all, which is very frustrating.

Faith is something that we all have. To go in an elevator, you have got to have faith. When we get in an airplane, we have faith we’re not going to crash. That’s a type of faith. We get in our car, and we have faith that our car’s going to start up and it’s going to take us to our destination. That’s faith. That is put in its simplest form.

Faith in God is simply believing that when we talk to God, when we live for God, that he will lead us, that he will guide us, and he will direct our lives and that he will take care of us. And we have to have unwavering faith. Doubt destroys faith. And so he needs to get rid of the doubt in his life and he needs to just totally fill his body up with faith, so that there isn’t room for doubt to come in. No matter what happens, he needs to just say, “Thank you God, this is your will concerning me.”

OS: OK, I know that this is really putting it in its basic form, but you’re saying to try to keep a positive attitude.

TFM: Yeah. Faith is really a very positive attitude and an unfailing trust in God. You just have to have trust in God that does not waver.

OS: And when it does waver?

TFM: When it does waver, say, “Forgive me, Lord, and help me to trust you.” The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. He created this world and he created everything around us. Without God there would be nothing.

OS: When I was growing up, the Catholic Church taught that God is everything. For some reason, that has stayed with me. In other words, God is the pen that I am writing with, God is the book that I am reading, God literally is everything.

TFM: To me, God made this world and God is all around us, he’s in us. I do believe God is everything. He’s in the flowers, in the trees, he’s everything beautiful.

OS: But he’s also everything that’s not beautiful.

TFM: Well, there’s a lot of devil that comes around, too.

OS: If someone or something is not beautiful, that doesn’t mean…

TFM: That he isn’t God. He’s still God. God is God is God is God.

OS: So there’s a man who has just murdered someone else—he’s also part of God, and there’s a reason that that’s happened.

TFM: Well, we have to just trust God. That’s where our faith comes in. That’s where trust comes in. I believe that you know that there are things the devil makes happen, but God could stop them. You understand what I’m saying? God allowed Job to be tested.

OS: I wish I could talk to you more about the Bible, but I haven’t read the Bible since I was a kid.

TFM: It’s all right. I understand that. What you need to do, you need to get yourself a living Bible, because that explains it very clearly. Just start from Matthew. And you’ll be so excited, because the more you read it, the more you want to read it. It’s really an exciting book.

OS: That’s what I’ve heard, but I don’t want to read anything that says I’m going to hell.

TFM: Aha, but don’t be afraid of that.

OS: I’m not afraid of it, I just don’t want to read it, and I don’t want to be involved with people who say I’m going to hell.

TFM: Right, right. Well, I understand that totally.

OS: Why do I want to put myself in that position?

TFM: But reading the Bible isn’t going to do that for you.

OS: Well, aren’t there passages that say…

TFM: If those passages convict you, then you need to rethink it. And if there’s something in there that the Bible says and you feel, Oh, my gosh, there’s something wrong here, that’s what’s called conviction, honey.

OS: But if it says I’m going to hell…

TFM: Then all you do is say, “Jesus, forgive me of my sins, come into my heart, and be my savior.” Then you know you’re not going to hell.

OS: I’m not sure I get that because if it’s…

TFM: If the Lord has come into our heart and our life and we are living for him and serving him, we are not going to hell. We’ll stumble, we’ll fall, we’ll have to get up again.

We get mad at somebody, we’ll say something we shouldn’t, we’ll do things we shouldn’t, but that isn’t going to send us to hell just because we slip and fall. All we gotta do is get back up again and start over. The same thing with God.You can always start over and say, “Forgive me of my sins, and Lord help me to live a life that is pleasing unto you.”

OS: It’s not clear to me that you’re saying that if I’m gay, then I will go to heaven because of saying those words.

TFM: That’s between you and God, and you’ve got to believe it when you say it.

OS: But I don’t believe by being gay I’ve sinned.

TFM: What I’m saying is that it has to be between you and God. Not between you and a preacher, not between you and a priest, not between you and anyone else. It has to be between you and God.

The Bible says that we have to work out our own salvation. There are things that I can do that other people couldn’t do. There are things that other people do, like drink and smoke, that I couldn’t do. I feel very wrong about drinking, I feel very wrong about putting a cigarette in my mouth; I would never do that, because I don’t want to hurt my body. I would not go out and have an affair. There are certain things I couldn’t do because of my walk with God. But now some people, they think differently. They have worked out their salvation in a different way. And so we need to work out our own salvation, and it’s a personal experience with God. Only you and God can figure out what’s right for you.

OS: OK. I can deal with that. Is there anybody in your family who is gay that you know of?

TFM: No. Not that I know of.

OS: If you son or daughter were to come to you and say “I’m gay…”

TFM: Oh, I’d love them just as much. I’d take them in and I’d take their partners in. That would not bother me at all.

I have worked with the gay community now for years. I do things for the gay community all the time. I’m getting ready to do a speaking engagement for a teaching thing for one of my gay friends, and I’m also getting ready to do a big AIDS benefit. When my gay friends come to town, they stay here at my house. They’re no different.

OS: Yes, I understand. I know that now. But only by watching The Eyes of Tammy Faye did I see the variety of people involved in the PTL.

TFM: We had everybody on. Catholics and Jews and Gentiles and black and white and yellow, they were all on PTL. That was what was so great about PTL.

OS: But I guess we wouldn’t have known if there were any lesbians. Have women ever put the make on you?

TFM: No, they never have.

OS: Would it bother you?

TFM: I’d just laugh. I would really laugh, because obviously I’m not gay. And I would just laugh and say, “Honey, you’re looking up the wrong person here.” But I’ve met some wonderful lesbian ladies. In fact, I’ve corresponded with one girl for a long time because she was having a problem, had a lost relationship, and she was really suffering. I wrote back and forth to her on the computer for a long, long time trying to help her, and I think eventually I did help her. I have a lot more gay friends than I do lesbian friends. I don’t know why lesbians stay away from me, but what they don’t realize is I could be a good friend to them.

OS: Because you can be a good friend to anybody?

TFM: I’m just a people person. I love people, and, you know, God does not categorize sin. And God does not categorize people. It’s we humans that do that.

OS: However, the more we label ourselves as gay, the more people will realize how many gay people there are.

TFM: Oh, what I’ve said so many times is that what I’m trying to do is put my arms around the gay community and the straight community and hug them together. I’m trying to let the church know that there’s a large gay population out there that we are not loving and caring about. And I think that’s sad. I go to gay churches. I minister in gay churches.

OS: Your book actually says…

TFM: That we’re all OK.

OS: Yeah, and that we’re gonna survive.

TFM: Yes, it’s about survival and that any of us can survive. I don’t care where you’re starting from, you can survive, you can make it. If I’ve gone through all the things I’ve gone through in my life, then anybody can do it. I thought I was a wimp, but I found out through this that I guess I’m not. I must have been a lot stronger than I thought. God will allow us to go through adversity to show us how strong we really are as human beings. That which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. And I truly believe in that.

I was always taken care of and never had to worry about anything, and then when I came to the point where I had nothing and no one, I found out that I was a person, I wasn’t just Jim Bakker’s arm or his … you know, I was a person. I was a person that could make it, that was capable of making decisions, that was capable of getting out there and making my life happen. And I never dreamed that. I didn’t dream I could do anything without Jim.

OS: I also liked the chapter on the gay community. It was interesting that a gay man sent you $10,000.

TFM: Yes, he did. We didn’t have hospitalization, we had nothing. Here I was with Jamie, Jim was in prison, I was by myself. I had a little church that I’d started, that’s all I knew to do. And this man who had watched PTL, a gay man who had watched PTL, sent me that money. I kept it in the bank the whole time Jim was in prison. And Jamie had to have braces, and things did happen. And that money just literally saved my life. And I still love him today. He’s still a dear friend today.

So it was the gay community that found me. People said they couldn’t find me. Well, the gay community found me. And I will always love the gay community, because they cared about me. They cared about my hurting, and they cared about my suffering, and I think the reason they did is because they’ve suffered and they’ve hurt and they’ve gone through feelings of rejection and feelings of just downright hate from people. And that’s what I felt after we lost PTL. I feel like I went through almost everything the gay community has gone through. And I believe that’s why we have such a love for each other, even though they know that I’m not gay.

Blase DiStefano, creative director of this magazine, interviewed B.D. Wong for the June issue.

If you have any comments about this article, please email them to letters@outsmartmagazine.com.